July 02, 2004
About The Fingers
Did you see the supposed hearing of that bastard Saddam? The man who stayed in power for years with the help of foreigners, tortured and killed individuals while destroying their communities, used the support of his allies; U.S., France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and UAE to wage a nasty 8 year long war on his Eastern neighbor and shower Iranian soldiers with his chemical arsenal, is now concerned about the fairness of his trial. He has every right to be too. After all, even a man who denied all his victims this, deserves a fair and full trial.
And how about his 7 charges.. did you see those? In case you missed it, he has been charged (at least to this point) with the following crimes:
- Attack on Halabja
- Killing Massoud Barzani's family
- Killing of political party leaders
- Killing of religious leaders
- The "Anfal" campaign against Kurds
- Crushing of the 1991 Shia and Kurdish uprising
- Invasion of Kuwait
Notice anything missing there? Saddam's most horrific and bloodiest crime happened when he unilaterally invaded parts of South-West Iran. The ensuing war claimed over a million victims and his tactics, including use of WMD's were perfected and used extensively during this period. Not to take anything away from his criminal act in Halabja, but in scope and shear numbers alone, there are no comparisons.
However, the Kuwaiti invasion gets mentioned, but not invasion of Iran. Some subjects aren't sexy enough I guess. Or maybe if its mentioned, it may renew calls for compensation by majority of his victims who happen to live next door. Who knows?
For now, Iran gets no mention but what is prominent in every report I read is Saddam's fingers! I'm sure you've seen them too, here's an example. It seems that most reporters covering the event were very aware of Saddam's fingers. Be it jabbing, pointing or waving in the air, his fingers are prominently mentioned. How stupid do you have to be as a journalist to not put your own cultural bias aside and look at an even happening before you in its proper social and regional perspective? You think it may be possible that gestures such as finger-waving are only translated within a certain cultural frame-work? In many countries for example, a middle finger means nothing but here it is an insult. Could the same be true of finger-jabbing in Iraq? But that's not sexy enough and doesn't go with the story.
Your readers watched the TV coverage of this event too and since they saw the fingers within their own limited frame of mind, they probably looked at it the same way and your story will touch a nerve. Who cares about its accuracy. Who cares about the important issues not covered in this hearing (like over a million lives), at least the fingers were mentioned and covered thoroughly. Journalist's job is done no?
Posted by Pedram at July 2, 2004 12:50 AM
Apparantly 20 something years of millions of lives going down the toilet (I am talking the ones who survived it, not even the dead.) With no right for redemption is a little price we gotta pay for being Eyeranian
No it's not that. It is only because not all wars are illegal. I believe they should be but they are not. The Kuwait war itself was not illegal but the invasion and taking over the country and essentially annexing it and calling it part of Iraq, was under international law illegal.
The use of the chemical weapons on the Iranian soldiers was illegal but actually more Iraqis died due to chemical weapons than Iranians.
You could be right and maybe that should have been added to the charges also, but I don't know what the reasons are. They have said on numerous occasions that these are the charges for NOW. The burden of proof and or collecting evidence might be harder or take more time when it is the case of illegal bombs dropped on a foreign country. (Cross-border cooperation and what not.)
So don't become all defensive and think it is because EVERYBODY hates YOU and YOU being Iranian and ALL IRANIANS because of it. Not everything is a conspiracy. Not everybody hates you. (man-ham na be khoda.)
Also, when they caught the DC sniper they charged and found him guilty only on ONE of the kills. A white woman, I believe. That didn't mean that nobody cared about the other victims or it was some racial thing.
1. Could you please tell me what legalizes the Iraq-Iran war?
2. About the collection of evidence being harder: Maybe, but that's not good enough a reason not to mention it at all!
3. Not everything is a conspiracy, but some things are. And conspiracies are not rare, actually they are common practice in politics, even in democratic countries. Just think about this for a second.
An answer to the previous comment:
1. The invasion of Khouzestan was similar to the invasion of Kuwait. Iraq occupied Khouzestan, called it Arabia, and Saddam officially announced it a part of Iraq. He changed the names of the cities (Khoramshahr to Muhammara, and Ahwaaz to a similar Arabic name).
2. What is your source for saying the number of Iraqis dying due to chemical weapons is more than Iranians? During the second half of Iran-Iraq war Chemical weapons were used by Iraq on daily basis.
3. What does the "charges for now" means? Shouldn't an eight-years war be the first item on this list? Specially if WMD are used in such a war.
Posted by: The Other at July 2, 2004 02:12 AMI can tell you why the the Iran/Iraq war wasn't mentioned..but before I do let me just say I don't agree with it being the reason. It is because the Iranian government did not help in the ousting of Saddam. The Kuwaiti governmet did. That is plan and simple. Had Tehran provided SOME type of aid, I think there would have been a good chance that Saddam would have been charged with that as well.
Posted by: US Vet at July 2, 2004 05:34 AMHUH?! So you mean because Iran didn't help oust Saddam then it has been ok for him to attack Iran? US Vet my friend, you can't be serious about this! What kind of reasoning is this???
Posted by: PK at July 2, 2004 05:48 AMOne life can make such a difference...or do so much damage. I got kicked off a UK site for asking: if Iraq wasn't a Muslim country, would the world have allowed the tortures etc. to go on? I wasn't saying that...I was honestly asking it. One thing which may or may not be fair but is happening, my generation of Americans who are fighting over in Iraq won't being thinking "made in France" mean a product is exquisite or high class. They've seen that sticker on Saddam's weapons all over the war field. I hope the Food for Oil scandal comes out too. I'm glad Iraq has the death penalty and that he's not on trial in Europe.
Posted by: John Pender at July 2, 2004 07:28 AMPK,
I said the war was not illegal. I didn't say it was legal. There is a difference there. And the war (unfortunately) was not illegal, because there is no statute that makes war illegal. There is always justification (however wrong) in the minds of the people that start wars. There have been over 100 relatively major wars around the World in the last 50 years alone. What makes Iran-Iraq war any different? Why shouldn't HALF of the leaders of the World today go on trial for waging "illegal wars"?
Also, this is a legal proceeding; it is not a newspaper item to "mention" something or other. It is not a public forum to make Iranians feel better by mentioning the war. On the other hand most news stories that talk about Sadam atrocities also do mention the war with Iran and whole lot of other things that he did. That is the right place to do it.
Like I said, in the sniper case only the one woman that he went on trial for got mentioned. That did not mean that others were not important. That is how the law works.
Plus as a prosecutor, you would not have done your job if you bundle all of the issues together, in a case like this (If you believe in double-jeopardy – as I do). If for some reason - technical or legal - this case brought against him fails then they can start a new case with the illegal actions during Iran-Iraq war.
You don't know why so don't assume it is because they don't like YOU personally that they did not mention Iran.
And finally, if he gets to spend the rest of his life in jail, what do you care if it was because he was sent there for having killed the Iraqi Kurds or half a dozen of MY cousins? I don’t.
The strange thoughts of this last poster just amazes me! We have got brains and then we have got brains!
Posted by: Mehran at July 2, 2004 09:30 AMAs far as I can understand, something is either legal or illegal. The only exception would be if no law existed which would deal with such a situation, in which case the Kuwait war would be just the same (neither legal nor illegal). What I mean is: The Kuwait war is in no way different from the Iran war, and hence this is sort of a double standard (Actually, based on the harm and the damage it caused, the Iran war would be first place).
About whether they like us or not, I honestly don't care, I'm sure there are many Americans who do and many others who don't, and that is just normal. I don't blame anybody for not liking Iran, they don't have to!
Thanks Pedram for mentioning this, once again the charges against this mad man shows how biased the law is, and some citizens lives are more valuable than others. Even worst than this, would be the Nightline’s interview with Saddam’s Jordanian lawyer last night. Not only they did not bring up the invasion of Iran as a crime, the lawyer stated that they have proof that Halabcha was Iranian’s fault not Saddam! And, when asked how he would defend against the mass graves in southern Iraq, guess what, he blamed it on Iranians again, Iran did it! The nightline anchor even did not ask him what proofs they have or why is that nobody have heard about this before…
Posted by: SJ at July 2, 2004 09:41 AMExcellent post Pedram. Thank you.
Posted by: Faramin at July 2, 2004 09:52 AMIf the court proceedings do not place full blame on Saddam and his army for attacking Iran, at the right historical time, Iran will beat the crap out of Iraq for attacking her in 1980’s and getting away with it in the 2000’s.
The chickens will come home to roost eventually.
PK my friend,
Please do not misunderstand me, I don't think because Iran did not help take Saddam down that it was okay for Saddam to invade Iran. If that was the impression you got from what I said then I am sorry. I don't believe there was any justificaton for Saddam to invade Iran. I believe he should have been charged with invading Iran. But, what I was saying is because Iran did not help, like the Kuwaitis, is the reason he was not now charged with the crime. Had Iran provided some type of assistance during the fall of Saddam, I think the charge of invading Iran would have been added. As I said in my first post, I do not agree, if that is truly the reason, that invading Iran should have been left off the list of charges. I think it should have been added. I only offered a possible reason as to why they were left off.
US Vet, Thanks for clarifying your position. I think you're right. This is at least part of the reason, and I think the point is that generally the Iran-US relations are not the friendliest. Iran's not cooperating with the US during the war is an example of that, and as a result the US don't care about Iranian interests in this case.
Posted by: PK at July 2, 2004 12:08 PMYes, PK and US Vet, This IS one reason but not the main reason. Please do not forget that charging Saddam for invading Iran and partially putting him on trial for doing so, means putting US leaders and the leaders of some other western countries on trial (if it is a complete trial and not just a kangroo trial, that is). After all what Saddam did was with the backing of those leaders. THAT is why attacking Iran is pushed aside.
Posted by: Faramin at July 2, 2004 12:54 PMPoint well taken!!
Posted by: US Vet at July 2, 2004 01:09 PMThis is True that Saddam waged a stupid/illegal war against Iran, but please don't forget that Khomeini's regime extended it to become and 8-years wars, the Mullahs are criminal in iraq-Iran war as Saddam is. So be sure that a charge against Saddam for Iraq-Iran war eventually brings Mullha in Tehran to the justice seat too.
and while this regime represents Iran internationally -like it or don't lime it- Iran is resplosible for this crime in any international court for this war as well.
Azadeh,
Not to defend Mullahs, but it is understandable that any system in power would want to remove the enemy from power especially if they attack them first such as the case of Iraq attacking Iran. Mullahs are no exception. The Mullahs are guilty of so many crimes that extending a war to overthrow their enemy is not worthy of pusuing.
Azadeh,
The most horrifying result of the US-backed Saddam war against Iran was to give the opportunity to the regime in Tehran to stabilize itself and crack down on growing peoples' democratic demands in the name of war time security measures. Otherwise, probabaly that regime wouldn't last as long as it has so far.
Posted by: Faramin at July 2, 2004 06:58 PMMy whole point is that don't be mournful about why Iraq-Iran war was not in the charge list against Saddam. Because if it comes to compensation things, nodbody knows the outcome, maybe at the end the Iranian people are the ones that should pay the bill.
In this case of course no harm or any things for Mullahs in Tehran as they don't give a damn to what's missing from Iranian people's pocket.
They could just happiley cheer up that their long claim finally got a world recognition while they were very guily in this war and did the crime against humanity as Saddam did and as you all mentioned they cracked down all the opposition and stablized themself by that war.
So do you still fell sad about what was missing from Saddam charge list?
1) It was my understanding that indirect contacts have been made with Tehran concerning crimes against humanity.
2) For those of you who like to insinuate that America armed and kept sadam in power let me remind you. His air Force -- French. His Infantry -- Russian. His mustard gas, sarin, and delivery vectors -- Russian. His nuclear Reactor -- French. In fact I ahve a great picture of Chirac and Saddam shaking hands inside the Iraqi Nuclear Reactor.
I have no love for the Isrealis, but I think its a good thing they bombed his Reactor when they did.
Posted by: A.H. at July 3, 2004 06:37 PMAH
"1) It was my understanding that indirect contacts have been made with Tehran concerning crimes against humanity."
Who are you CIA agent. Go spread your hallaucination somewhere else. What are you smoking anyway? you better go easy man, you have been really messed up recently.
R
A.H. add this to your list:
The intelligence needed to infiltrate Iranian airspace as well as troop movement by Iranians - American.
Posted by: Nasser at July 3, 2004 10:07 PMIt is really odd that the nation that was Saddam's greatest ally is systematically forgotten, as if it never existed and yet during the eighties all of the world politics were influenced by the act of that tyrant nation.
Posted by: pp at July 5, 2004 09:42 AMBTW US has an odd way of supporting allies. They sell them no weapons, avoid diplomatical relations and in stead of official envoys send nobodies to meet the presidents of the "allies".
Posted by: pp at July 5, 2004 09:48 AMVery good point Pedram. If Iran-Iraq war is not addresed clearly and without coverup it will fester and turn into a boil!! Then you all know what happends to boils.
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