© the eyeranian

Bravo! Well said. :)

Pedram, regardless of how I agree with your entire post, I wanted to say how gifted I think you are in articulating issues in most basic and yet logical way. Please quit whatever it is you are doing and write that book of yours.

Nice post, should be a wake up call for some as it has been for me. Sometimes the criticism of the US seems overwelming and I get very angry with many who voice their opinions on this issue. Many people in this country still equate our government with the people, especially when we see criticism of either one. Your smiley faces will be my own reminder of the tremendous amount of good this country does and the nearly unlimited opportunities available here. I would like to see all people have the same opportunities. Thanks.

I hate smiley faces. *evil grin*

Why do you keep posting pictures of President Bush's face in this posting?

You insensitive, ungrateful @*#$%@ foreigner: just because we did you a favor and let you in to sweep the floors, clean the toilets or flip the burgers, doesn't mean now you can make suggestions.

Just shut up, be happy with the minimum wage and basic cable or we'll send you back to the hell-hole you escaped from!

Proud 2B American

At the risk of sounding conspiratorial, that last comment was probably posted by a foreigner, or perhaps pedram himself to defame Americans.

This blog is filled with radical leftist ideas, conspiracy theories, and outright nonsense. Concepts like 'the American borders are illegal'. Any reply to the contrary is shouted down as racist.

And who can forget the bigoted rant about 'The Great European', which basically blames everything wrong with the world on white Americans of European decent. Again the catch 22, any reply to that rant can easily be brushed aside as racist.

Then there are the bizarre conspiracy theories, such as 'the west planned the break up of Yugoslavia' , or that the Republicans are setting the roadside bombs in Iraq.

I see something here that I feel like challenging, then I come back the next day to find Pedram's big long 'Smiley Face' post that suggest that HE is the one being shouted down by racists.

Thats rich.

Well there you have it! This ignorant poster couldn’t do a better job demonstrating Pedram’s point. His comment is so ridiculously racist that it is more like a practical joke to me than a real response!

Just because John Ashcroft is in the hospital doesn't mean the store is closed, OK? I'm here taking down names, filing the paperwork, so start packing.

Americans who booted the Indians out of their lands,enslaved the Africans,lynched them afterwards!, majority of whom do not know if Moses was a prophet or an NBA player! and most of all depend on foreign brain for inventions, research and new ideas really have every right to be proud of themselves like the Proud 2B baboon! I wish the Iranians in California alone, who by the admission of the WASP American government census, are the richest, best educated and most prosperous of all the ***-americans in that State would withdraw their money out of the banks and leave the likes of 2B bums unemployed be !!!

Dear A.H- You can add former U.S attorney general Ramsey Clark to your list of nut jobs who put forth "bizarre conspiracy theories" like the one about the deliberate plans to break up Yugoslavia. Open your eyes for god's sake.

On another note, I agree with you about the racist post in so far as I don't think it was written in earnest. It's called irony. So don't get all conspiratorial, someone may mistake you for one of us paranoid iranians. oh the horror, the horror.

Proud 2B American...those were very unAmerican remarks. For your own sake...no one else's...you should get to know people from different cultures and learn not to hate. The only one you are hurting is you...wasting your time, your day hating.

And before you say something to me...I'm an Irish/German American Catholic who is glad we attract the world's best as immigrants. It has taken the world's people(s) to make us a world leader.

Citizens of the USA should have the interests of USA as their priority, they should let go of all fealty to foreign powers. Does that mean no dissent? No, dissent all you want to, just don't undermine the national interests of your country. I would suggest that for other nationalities, vis-avis their own country, just don't masquerade as someone you are not.

So, which side is your bread buttered?

Proud 2B American

I think the overiding truth is that there are bigoted and close-minded people everywhere, in every country and among every race or religion. I have met Americans that hate foreigners, and I have met Americans that love foreigners. I have met Iranians that love non-Iranians, and ones that hate them. Most Americans that I have met in my many years have been very gracious towards me. Some have looked down upon me for being a foreigner. But far be it from me to make categorical statements that Americans are this or Iranians are that.

You have to remember that as a blogger, you have a very specific audience, and should be careful of concluding overall national trends based on the people that comment here or send emails. In statistical terms, you have a very biased sample (biased by the fact that they read this blog, or use the net for that matter).

ok, i take back what i said earlier. I was giving Proud 2B american the benefit of the doubt. I thought he was using self-parody as a tool for commenting on racist hypocrisies about who gets to have freedom of speech in the USA. But, no, he wasn't putting forth a critique, he was just being a racist hypocrite. well, either way, it still shows the cracks in the facade of "American freedom" and "liberty for all".

This is a question, that may or may not be relevant to the forum at hand:

Would illegal 'Gringos' in Mexico, have the cojones to demand a variety of social services from the government of Mexico or insist on asserting their opinions on the public, or expect their beliefs to be substituted in place of the local beliefs?

See it all comes down to this: are Americans (of the northern persuasion, Pedram) any more unfair than their less fortunate neighbors? Are Americans any less open to outsiders? Do Americans ban the use of head-scarves in their public schools for example?

Proud 2B American

Pedram can say whatever he wants. If it bothers idiots such as Proud 2B American, that is because of his own weakness.
The post is clear in saying criticizing a government, is not equal to criticizing a nation. If you criticize Iran's government, only idiots can attack you and accuse you of being anti-Iranian because of your critisism.
So, my message to proud 2B American is "go shoot yourself" with a cheap bullet so not to waste much on you. And hey, take it easy. I am not an American and I don't live in the US so, your "national interest" has no value to me.

Hello everyone. I'm writing to you from Bangalore, where I contribute mightily to the efforts of the great American Michel Dell. The pay very, very good here but not as good as America. I hope one day to come to your great country where I can meet the great Vinod Khosla, who is like an icon to myself and other here. I think Amerika is great country and George Bush good president. I like your smile facey.

Regards
Vishnu

[ ADDED BY PEDRAM - "Vishnu" as well as "2B" are both on Verizon IP's out of Boston, MA. I don't have a habit of restricting people's right to express their opinion. But if they choose to continually insult people and be deceitful, I may not have a choice.]

Attention A.H.,

The above editted part by Pedram might interest you who said:

"At the risk of sounding conspiratorial, that last comment was probably posted by a foreigner, or perhaps pedram himself to defame Americans."

Would you like to appologize to him?

Proud 2B American,
At least be smart enough to use the same basics for spelling "American" and "Amerika".

Dear vishnu from Boston! yes, America is in fact a great country. But the Bush administration proved to me that we are already past the declining point of this glory.

This is a recurring pattern which has shattered a lot of other great things as well. You remember the story of Google AdSense on this very site? It is this same pattern that will transform the google nice to the google monopoly.

And please remember that if there is anything to be proud of, that would be the people who actually created this civilization, by escaping from then unhealthy european systems which were already full of the criteria that you have come to want today.

Pedram,
did you really ad the follwoing part under Vishnu?
It appears that it is a part of Vishnu's posting.
also a VPN connection combined with other routings may make a connection look as it coming from a different connection.

[ ADDED BY PEDRAM - "Vishnu" as well as "2B" are both on Verizon IP's out of Boston, MA. I don't have a habit of restricting people's right to express their opinion. But if they choose to continually insult people and be deceitful, I may not have a choice.]

[[ ADDED TO "ADDED BY PEDRAM" - It was really me! ]]

Proud 2B American,

i don't know what your background is, but i suggest you check into it...your ancestors probably came to the US hungry and miserable on rafts...they were referred to as WOPS (w/out papers)...
take a trip to Ellis Island, i'm sure you'll see your grandparents pictures on the wall...

who do you think you are referring to people like that ???? your mommy and daddy have done a nice job on you...congratulate them...and get some professional help !!!

fortunately, garbage like you is a minority in this country...and has absolutely no decision-making power...

Day 2 of reading this blog and I'm impressed by Pedram and Omid's remarks today. Looking back I think I wrote in haste and didn't clarify my remarks yesterday. I'm sorry if I came acros a reactionary.
I do read a lot of various news sources from around the world and especially since 9-11, so I don't find my thinking is bound by "American Conspiracy tabloids" (Foxnews, cnn, etc.). In fact, the more I read sources from around the world the more I see the importance of getting all sides and discerning from there. You will find as much diversity of thought and angle in any American newspaper as anything you will find around the world. It really depends on who you read and who's writing.
My main point, which I made badly yesterday, was that it seemed that the word neocon was being thrown about by different people to mean different things. It seemed it was used in the context of our current administration (Bush, Cheney, etc). Which is fine, maybe there's a post on here that clearly defines how you see "neocon". I personally read enough from what you would probably call neocons to realize that they agree on things as much as the world agrees on things. There is definitely a fundemental understanding, but to say that there is a gaggle of people who are planning and conspiring a singular plan for the world is not founded on any facts.
The point I have issue with is assuming a motivation on the part of our administration (your neocons I'm assuming) to willfully kill hundreds of Iraqis on a day of religious worship. To me it is contrary to everything that the administration fought for and stand for and if money(greed) and power is the US motivation theory on this site then to me it's a huge leap of logic. All one has to do is look back to the first gulf war and see the same "No blood for Oil" slogans sprayed around my town and the world and then look at the outcome and clear motivation of the "neocons". Ask a Kuwati what it meant to have our support.
To understand a lot of Americans (not all of course) you have to understand what we grow up learning and living by. Freedom, liberty, democracy, and equality (among many others). Of course bad Americans have done bad things, but everyone I knew growing up and know now believe very deeply in helping those who can't help themselves to achieve freedom and liberty from tyranny. My immigrants came over from Italy and Germany at the turn of the century to find a place where they could pursue there dreams away from economic and government oppression...as did a lot of my friends families. This is a very deep part of our psyche and a great symbol to a lot of us in the Iraq war was when the statue came down in Baghdad. The Iraqis wanted to tear it down, but ultimitely they couldn't without the help of the US soldiers. I feel that any capable human should help those who are oppressed and tortured. I think our government failed the Iraqi people for a long time and finally we have a chance to help them find their voice apart from their tyrant. To me WMD's are completely seperate issue which has been a worry of every country for over 15 years, but the real issue is stopping such eggregious oppression. Maybe you guys can answer this question, but why did so many neighbors of Iraq just let Saddam do such horrific things? I hear such railing against America and Israel (believe me Israel has done many aweful things as well) when many more people are dying under regimes like Saddams? We cry over the dispicable actions of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Milosevic, etc. so why stand idlely by when the same thing is happening now...well, now it "was" happening. And I thank the president for stopping the oppression and tyranny in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Dear Luke,
I see hope here. But you need to continue reading until you can honestly answer to yourself why is it that this idealistic government that you are defending just helped overthrow a publicy elected president in Haiti and why it has no interest in getting involved in half dozen hot spots where tyrants continue to opress people. Just connect the dots and if you are not biased you will see more than what the administration wants you to see.

I second Azita ! Also for the fellow who is taking down names ! Idiots like him assume that everyone lives in US of A ! Interesting to know that your incumbent Mr. President, prior to taking office, had only been abroad once in his entire Texan life ! and to Mexico for that matter ! When interviewed he did not even know what the name of the Head of State he was visiting is !!! So I mean "Like President like citizen !" America was built on hard work, true values and a strive for the better. Not the sort of values most infantile ignorant jack-asses like 2B aspire to !

On one hand I can see how those born in the US may become frustrated by foreigner's seemingly continuous complains about our country. If you choose to immigrant to a country at least pick on you actually like!

However, having an immigrant husband who has lived in this country for 4 years I ultimately see these complaints as beneficial. The US holds itself out to be a great light to the world. To be a country based on fairness, justice and equality. Many who immigrate here believe these ideals to be true in practice. Their complaints should encourage all of us to live up to the ideals we've set up for ourselves - make us a better country. Immigrants should not be blamed for pointing out our short comings. We need to look at it as constructive criticism. We should not be surprised that immigrants demand the US Constitution and Bill of Rights to be worth more than the paper they're printed on - that's the ideal WE sold them.

Mehran,
Off topic here on Haiti. Let's be clear, I'm not a Bush supporter, but if the US (or France, where are they?) hadn't done something in Haiti and hundreds of civilians were seen on TV dead in the streets of Port-Au-Prince, who would have gotten the blame for allowing it to happen. The US? Absolutely.

What might have been a better solution?

Kristen,

First of all, how can you prove your claim about Haiti?
Second, Where was the US when 800,000 people were massacred in Rwanda in only 100 days? 8000 a day!
You can't just brand democratically elected leaders as "failed leaders" and act like terrorists against them. Good or bad, Aristid was democratically elected by landslide victory. Bush, even didn't win the US popular vote (if he won the elections at all). It doesn't matter if you are a supporter of Bush or not. Looks like this has become a culture in US politics that your leaders allow themselves to act against whoever they don't like. And Unfortunately the US public is not yet mature enough to stop justifying these policies.
Who is next, Chavez? Yes, I know Bush hates the man. But hey, poor Venezuellans love the man. US is putting its dirrty nose everywhere. It's time for you people to stop watching too much CNN and FOX and see what is really happening around the world.

Dear Dot,
America & it's economy has been declining for sixty years. In the last sixty, thirty, fifteen & five years the American ecomomy has out preformed all nations in the developed world. American society is the envy of most of the developed world. We are not perfect but perfect is an ideal to strive for. @ the moment America is simply GREAT, but we are working on perfect!!
Please check back in ten to 100 years.

Luke,
You believe we use the word Neocons without knowing what we talk about, and you say: "... to say that there is a gaggle of people who are planning and conspiring a singular plan for the world is not founded on any facts."
I think for looking at some facts you need to look at this website created by Neocons themselves:
http://newamericancentury.org/
It is called The Project for the New American Century. Read the Statement of Principles written in June 1997. That might help you to know more about their "singular plan" of this "gaggle of people" and their ideas about their New American Century.

Also it is not bad if you take a look at this link:
http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/index.html
Maybe that gives you a basic understanding of where these people come from.

Oh how many times I have asked myself that question! Why are americans so protective of their governmet?! Politics is the dirtiest business and to defend it in any country and trust your government completely as if it were a family member! How moronic should you be to do that?! Being an Iranian, I absolutely have no problem with criticizing any government, be it that of Iran or US! Why so protective?! It is rather wierd!

The Other - Those were great links. Thanks. I came out a "Realist" on the "Neocon" quiz. I've considered myself somewhat of a pragmatic idealist as of late, so that's pretty close. Definitely some great stuff to read and think about.
I still feel like there's a lot of people writing in here that are grouping "americans" and other groups into, if you'll pardon the poster reference, "The Other". This country is as varied in thought as any place out there. Our country consists of people from ever place on the planet and to point fingers and get mad at "those Americans" or "those Jews" or whatever will only end in pain. People critize the government like crazy here and it's a great thing. I personally try and take a more objective view and find things I like and dislike in our leaders. I can't stand the actions of Bush on amending the constitution over marriage, as well as budgets and some environmental stuff, but I am proud of his leadership after 9-11 and with the Afghan and Iraq Wars. Each of my views is always mutable as information comes in though.
Here's what worries me as I read some things here, which is what got me started in the first place...that we start(or continue) viewing people as steryotypes rather then individuals. Interestingly enough my German side of the family were prejudiced against the Italian side of my family until they got a chance to know each other as people rather then "those Italians". I personally would like to get to and find common ground with people from everywhere. We just feed into the problem by saying "America is Satan" or "Muslims are Terrorists". We all know that we need to stop this thinking.

How can I prove my claim? Soldiers were shooting into a hospital after protesters the week before! People were already being killed in the streets. Your comment about Rwanda just proves my point. We did nothing and now we are blamed. The same question is never asked of France or Rwanda's neighbors or the UN! Would you rather we sit on our hands?

Certainly the better option would have been for Aristid to stay and work out a solution or hold new elections. Are we even certain Bush forced him to go? Or did Aristid finally realize the dangerous position he was in with his own people?

Aristid was forced out because Bush didn't like him? Bush doesn't even know the names of most foreign leaders. I doubt he had any opinion about the leader of Haiti!

I get my news from a wide variety of sources - mainly the web. And at the very least never FOX News, unless I'm looking for a bit of amusement. Where does a bright person such as yourself get so enlightened if not be CNN and the like?

Kristen, you say,
"Soldiers were shooting into a hospital after protesters the week before!" Yes, the question is, How do you know that is true?

About Rwanda, it is not as simple as you are trying to show it: That killing was continuing with an average of 8000 people a day and that continued for 100 days. It is naive to think US didn't act because of not wanting to interfere with the affairs of other nations. BTW, Haiti is not Rwanda and there was no ethnical killings going on in it.

If I am questioning why US didn't do anything about Rwanda, it is not because I consider the US a "saviour". No, but it puzzles me to see the country which puts its nose almost everywhere in the world in the name of protecting democracy and humanity, when it comes to Rwanda, it does nothing.

By mentioning Bush, it must have been clear that I meant Bush administration, otherwise, I know Bush is not very smart and doesn't have any personall opinion. So, you think US had nothing to do with forcing him (at gun point) to get out of the country?

Kristen and Luke,
My question to you is that why the US government thinks that it should act as a savior for the other countries? Who gave the United States the right to intervene everywhere it wants? Why a country sees itself as the leader and owner of the world?

How do you justify the actions of your governments with mentioning the crimes the leaders of the other nations (or the nations themselves) have done? I don't understand your reasoning. Who are you -as a nation- to decide what is right and what is wrong for the rest of the world? Did anybody choose you as the police department of the world? Where the legitimacy of your actions come from?
Even if you are the police department of the world did anybody gave you the rights to make decisions about the economic activities of a country -the way your country does it in Iraq now? Shouldn't a decision like the privatization of Banks or oil industry be made by the democratically elected parliament? How did your government make those decisions? How did your country decides about what companies from what countries have the right to work in Iraq? Isn't it something that should be decided by the people of a country who owns the banks and those resources?

Even when you say your government is concerned about protecting the human rights I can not understand your reasoning. Let me give you an example: What could be your reaction -as a nation- if Canada or England or any other country have had occupied Alabama or Tennessee sometime in the 1930s-1950s and had forced you to stop segregation in those states? What could be your reaction if any other country has occupied your country in 1830s to force you to stop slavery? I am very happy that slavery and segregation are stopped in the US, but I am sure if a foreign force had done it for you defending slavery or segregation could be seen as a matter of nationalism here. That is why some people in Iraq are fighting for a monster like Saddam now. That's why people prefer fundamentalist Islam in Iraq and Afghanistan to your "Imported Democracy" -if we can call that US-appointed Karzai a democratic government.
Military force never can solve the problems of this kind. It is the minds of people that should change. Besides I never believe the US government cares for democracy or freedom of speech anywhere in the world. Just look at Uzbekistan... have you heard the name of that country in the news? The dictator in power in that country is as scary and as violent as Saddam. Back in the 80s he was the leader of the communist party , and now he is still in power. Uzbekistan is the only country in central Asia that hasn't even touched the pre-prostroika structure of the government and its secret police, but you don't hear its name in the mainstream media. Do you know why? Because Uzbekistan has allowed the US to have its military base there, and follows the rules the way they are dictated by American government.

Have you seen that episode of "Twilight Zone" about a child with a supernatural power? The six year-old child in the story has a magic power to destroy whatever and whoever he wants. He sees itself as the leader and the right decision-maker of the household and the neighborhood. Everybody follows his rules as much as they can without questioning him to be able to stay alive, but still there are occasions in the movie when someone is destroyed by the child because the person opposes his decisions or tells him the truth about him not being mature enough for his role.
In the story what is important to the child is his games and his short-term desires. Not everybody in the household is honest or right, but what is certain is that the logic of the relationship between that child the the others is totally wrong, totally stupid.
That metaphor reminds me of someone. I hope that child doesn't cause his own death with his own mighty power.

Kristen,
Obviously whatever your sources of news are, they didn't mention that up to 300,000 weapons of assorted kind and size where recently shipped to Aristid's oposition factions.
You see, as smart of a person you appear to be, it means nothing if your information is incomplete. That goes for the rest of voters in USA.

Oh, I failed the mentions that the source of the named weapons was no other country but the USA!

Mehran

Mehran is right... and what about those 6 Avax spy airplanes which were helping Iraq during the late 80s when it was USING its WMDs in an actual war against its neighbor and its own people? Why didn't anybody care about democracy and Iraq's threat to the world's security back then? Why none of these "free media" talked about it? Why the photographs of Halabche is published in Times and Newsweek after nearly 18 years? Wasn't it important back then?

Mehran,
Couldn't agree with you more that there needs to be much better control over whom US arms producers sell to. That would alleviate 60% of the problem. I added this link to one of my comments months ago, but here it is again. Hope no one minds the repeat:

http://www.controlarms.org/

Krestin,
According to the article in this URL:
http://www.tmtmetropolis.ru/stories/2004/03/05/120.html
Aristide's move to raise Haiti's minimum wage was the last straw for American corporations and elitist U.S. factions.

The Other,
I am an American, I am a conservative, and I was in the military for 20 years. I don't mind anyone critizing my government whatsoever, whether they be inside or outside the country. But what I do mind is an out and out lie (either intentional or unintentional). AWACS (they are not spy planes, they are flying radars) did NOT in any way, shape, or form, help/assist Saddam in the 80's. How do I know this? I flew about 70 missions out of Riyadh Air Base on those very AWACS aircraft in the 80s (83-85). Never once, on any mission I was on, did we help Iraq. We only monitored the activity for the defense of Saudi Arabia (whether they needed it or not can be debated). Now you may have a source that tells you that we did assist Iraq on those missions, I would like to know if that source was aboard any of the flights.
If you say we at some point assisted Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war, then I would agree we did. We gave them intelligence and sat photos. I personally think it was wrong to do so but I can understand how some people at the time might come to that decision based on what was happening/happened at the time.
Please, continue to critize all you want (I will say that I do learn things from the different viewpoints) but please be honest and have the right facts when you do.
Lest you think I am some uneducated, uncultured, white, European-American, I will offer a few facts about myself. I have lived in Greece, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Oman, England, and Germany. I happen to speak, read, and write Arabic and Greek. I am working on Persian/Farsi (my wife of 13 years was born and raised in Tehran, Iran).
Again, I will say, I do not mind the criticism, just be honest and have real facts when doing it.

Steve, ex-Mossad emplyee Victor Ostrovsky asserts in his book "By Way of Deception" that Isreal regularly provided the AWACS information shared with them by U.S. intelligence to Iraq whenever they felt Iran was making some gains at the war. He says the information was supplied via their "Iraq desk" and mostly unanimously via their plants. To be fair, he also says they did the same on a few occassions by providing Iran with location of Iraqi ships, etc. to keep the war going as long as possible. Any thoughts?

Also, the 6 AWACS Saudis bought were active during the same period and I presume their information was available to Saudi officials, at the time staunch allies of Saddam.

Nasser,
First off, thank you for the reply.
Sure a couple of thoughts, as I said before, AWACS was not spy plane but a flying radar. Any information gathered from a flying radar would be perishable information and therefore could not be passed through the Iraq desk in the US to Israel and on to Iraq. By the time it went through all of these stations, the event would be over.
I can tell you, the Saudis did buy AWACS but could not (or would not)fly them or control the mission on their own. That was why the US AWACS detachment was in Riyadh, to teach them to fly the aircraft themselves. In the early to mid 80s, the Saudis were not there yet.
I can only rely on my own experience being apart of 70 odd of those missions.
As in my early post, I did say we (the US) did provide intel and sat photos to Iraq but neither came from AWACS missions.
I am sorry I have not read the book, does the gentleman say what type of intel was passed from AWACS missions? Did he happen to see, use, or pass any of this intel?
Does the author make reference to Israeli aircraft maintainers fixing Iranian F-4 Phantoms? This was also widely speculated during the time. They would get the parts from Viet Nam and provide maintainance to keep the Iraning jets flying.
It is very odd that Israel would pass intel to Iraq around the same time they would bomb their nuclear power plant.
I know there are many theories out there as to what was going on, before I ever bleive any of them, I will go with what I saw with my own eyes first. But please understand, I only speak for what I had first hand knowledge of.

Steve

The Other,
What if you had a family living next door and you found out that the father has slaughtered his children and was about to kill his wife and had the potential to kill other people? Would you wash your hands of it and say that it's not your problem and let it go? Would you try to stop the man or call someone who had the power to stop him? I believe we have obligations to each other as human beings to protect the innocent from those who would destroy them. We have to stop looking at each other with such isolationist attitudes. Like I said before, the moment of the statue of Saddam coming down was a great symbol of the greater history. Iraqis could not tear down the statue without help just like the thousands upon thousands of Iraqis who died trying to stop Saddam, but they were not able to do it. Someone of power and means had to do it...in this case it was the US, Britain, Spain, Australia, and the many other countries.
To me this is the most important part of what we have done in Afghanistan and Iraq. WMD's? I'm glad we can findly find the truth without Saddam's obstruction, but that is such a secondary thing to stopping his tyranny of the Iraqi people. This is what I'm interested in.
Your analogies of segregation and slavery are interesting. The great thing about our form of government is that it is correctable. Iraqis never had a chance to change anything. Many Americans fought and changed the country away from those dispicable ways. I personally would have backed anyone who was in support of ending slavery and segregation if I was alive then. To me the question is "What is the greater good"? History is full of countries getting involved with each other. I'm not sure I get what you are so protective of. I don't view the world as so seperated. We are all in this together.
My Italian-American Grandfather fought on D-Day in WWII. He lost his brother to that war. I have so much respect for them. America got into that war for many reasons, yes, but what would have been the result if we didn't? Hitler's face would probably be painted all over Europe as much as Saddam's was in Iraq.
The tragedy of the middle east right now to me is the lack of support to people that are suffering. I hear so many chants to back your fellow arab people, but where is the true support? If America hadn't done anything then who would? Many of us give money, time, energy, etc. to help people around the world, I know I do (I just gave to the Iran earthquake relief). Why is this not held up as much as an example of the American people's heart? We don't have to do this, but what is our obligation as a nation of means to those who need help?

Dear Steve,
I never said you are "uneducated" and "uncultured," and I do not think being white and European-American means any thing negative.

I admit that I have no proof for what I said about AWACS airplanes except what I heard from the people who were fighting in Iran-Iraq war at the time. The people I talked to told me that Iraqis act more accurately from the time Saudis rented those six AWACS airplanes. That's the only source I have for what I said. So you might be right. But my question isn't it possible that Saudis have send the info to Iraqis? Kuwait and Saudis used to call Saddam "our great friend and brother" in those days. I still remember those words from Persian language programs of Kuwait Radio. Both countries used to help Iraq financially. Kuwait even let the Iraqi army to use the strategic Boubian island for attacking Iranians. I am sure you remember all these. So it is pretty possible that they have provided Iraq with the info from AWACS airplanes.

Regarding American involvement in Iran-Iraq war in supporting Saddam I remind you of the direct American attack on Iranian oil sites in the Persian Gulf and destroying them after an ultimatum to Iranian government for stopping the war. Khomeini didn't accept to do that and insisted on fighting with Saddam. The day after the IranAirlines Jumbo-jet with more than 200 passengers was shot by an American battleship. Khomeini stopped the war the day after.

I am sure you remember all these. These are documented facts. What do you think about them?

Luke,
I don't support an isolationist attitude. I completely support the idea of helping other nations and minorities that are in need of help either economically or politically. What I say is that the US is not a legitimate force for doing this job. The history of the US foreign policy is the history of helping dictators and supporting tyrannical regime in favor of the US short interests in the regions those dictators were ruling at. many of those fathers has slaughtered their children are brought to power by the US governments.

The United Nations was established about 50 years ago based on the same ideas you are talking about. If there is any source of power which is legitimate for intervening in every country's internal affairs that would be the UN. A legal system should be established that works above every country's legal system, supports the basic human rights, and support and legitimize the use of force against any government that doesn't apply to this basic rules. Unfortunately your country along with my country, Iraq (under Saddam Hussein,) China, Israel, Saudi Arabia, and a few more are the only countries in this world that consistently are against the establishment of such a law and such an intervention intervention by the UN. The US and Israel were the only countries in the world who didn't sign the Anti-Apartheid treaty that was signed 3 years ago. United States was among the few countries who didn't accept to participate in formation of an international legal system and didn't recognize it when it began its work last year (I do not remember the name but it was began its work last year in Europe) This international judicial system is supposed to be able to bring war criminal and dictators to trial based on their violations of human rights. Unfortunately the US and Israel act against it because they want their citizens to be exceptioned!

You ask "what is our obligation as a nation of means to those who need help?" Your obligation is to support a democratic system of protecting the weak and help to establish an international system that prevents violence and dictatorship in the world. Your country doesn't have any right to act on its own based on its own interests. Your government, as the strongest military force in the world, should learn to act more civilized. You don't have the right to bring dictators to power and remove them any time you want. You just do not have the right.

I brought up those analogies of segregation and slavery not because I am against any intervention, but because I wanted to clarify how it doesn't work when the intervention is done the way it is done in Iraq. Your forces there are not "legitimate." It doesn't mean that removing Saddam was not a right thing to do. It means US forces were not legitimate to do the job and this will make many problems for the US and for the Middle East.
See, it is easy to understand: the difference is the difference between lynching a murderer and trying him in a trial and punishing him based on what the judge says. The first leads to a chaos, The second to the rule of law.

The Other,
I think we agree on being pro-active in helping those who need help. I agree we need to have a rule of law. The problem I saw with the UN with the diplomacy to Iraq is that there was no follow through. An institution that fails to back up what it says is an ineffective institution. In fact France was on board with the US until the last minute when the winds of political opinion shifted and DuVillipan turned on Powell. Look that up in the lead up to the UN voting. I still believe that the UN needs to be respected, but it needed a spine with regard to Iraq. It was interesting to me that the countries that did a 180 on their opinions had the most to lose. Since the oil connections have been released I've found it telling who was taking advantage of the Iraqi people. So Russian, French, and many others are making billions on Iraqi oil and then Saddam builds palaces while Iraqi people die? Then America gets blamed for children dying because of sanctions? How messed up is that? Al Queda and the hijackers tried using that one as part of their justification for their actions, but at least now the truth can get out.... http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/archives/2004_01_01_hammorabi_archive.html#107528711586872873
My point is that a lot of countries had many motivations for their decisions and to me I'd rather be on the side that does something to end someone like Saddam...or Hitler, Milosevic, Pol Pot, Kim, Stalin, etc. The UN repeatedly said that they were going to do something, but clearly nothing would have been done unless someone said enough is enough. I'd like to reiterate that there were many countries who sided with the US in the UN, so saying it's unilateral is not true. The US and Britain definitely led, but many agreed and also acted. We did not "act on our own".

I'm still interested in hearing your opinion of why middle eastern countries have been so inactive in helping those who were slaughtered by Saddam over the years. Many are rightly upset about the israeli-palestinian situation and are willing to send money, weapons, whatever to help the palestinians, but why not help those in Iraq and Afghanistan who were so mistreated?

I agree with your analogy of the lynching of the murderer, but what if the police force and judge are in cahoots with the murderer? Saddam had many ties with many who were feeding off the Iraqi carcass. This is definitely a tangled political mess, but I still stand firm in backing those who would stop those like Saddam.

The Other,
Now we have some common ground here. While I insist no information came from the AWACS because when I flew we had only one Saudi aboard and he ususally slept the whole flight.
I agree with you that both the Saudis and Kuwaitis helped Iraq. I did see with my own eyes the Iraqi Air Force over fly Kuwait after attacking oil tankers in Iranian waters. So we agree there. If I remember the oil platfrom attack correctly, Iran was using this platform as a base to launch gunboat attacks. That would make it a military target. As for the Iranian Airbus, I will admit to this being a horrorible mistake by the American navy. The Vincennes (the US ship) was wrong and I am very sorry for that.
As you see, I don't deny that the US helped the Iraqis with intelligence and satallite photos. Please don't forget the Russians and French assistance to Saddam. The Saudis and Kuwaitis most definitely helped Saddam. All I am saying is it is very easy to throw something out as fact which may not be.
As for American support for Saddam during that time, we must remember what the decision was based on at that time and not what we know today. I am sure the Reagan Administration was not completely thrilled with Saddam. But, after the Iranian revolution and the whole hostage situation, you must admit you can see how the Reagan administration would come to the decision to support Saddam. If we could only tell the future!
Military speaking, I think Iran did an unbelievable job during that war. To fight the Iraqi army for eight years to what amounts to a tie is nothing short of a miracle. The Iraqis had so much support and resupply from Russia and France, that it is amazing that they did not just run over the Iranian military. I wondered at the time, what would have happened had Iran had half the support and resupply that Iraq did.
I would like to thank you for you opinions. While I probably will not agree with many, your opinions do give me the chance to think and learn. I am an American and I love my country, I love the current administration (although I have not agreed with them on every issue) but that does not mean I am closed minded or xenophobic (no you didn't hint at either). I love to learn about other countries, people, cultures, and religions. That is probably one reason why I married an Iranian.
Please keep posting your opinions and lets continue to have a spirited, civilized debate.

Steve

shute up!

is dis so called none sense?!! hhahaha lol !! okay im outss best of luckz?!