© the eyeranian

Today the remains of the Nazi concentration camps stand as a symbol of inhumanity by one people against another. How sad and ironic that the children of Israel are now building a grotesque symbol of their own inhumanity.

Posted by: AZARI at November 24, 2003 04:32 AM

I guess we can't learn from our mistakes.

Posted by: asad at November 24, 2003 01:08 PM

Thanks a lot Pedram for so nicely mocking both the Wall and Mr. Reagan! I love this

Posted by: Khodadad at November 24, 2003 09:14 PM

Why are we accepting this?

Posted by: nobbog at November 24, 2003 11:16 PM

"Mr. Sharon tear down this wall!"

...so it is easier for our suicide terror bombers to get to your busses and pizza restaurants and blow them up and kill lots of civilians.

Posted by: Person of Choler at November 25, 2003 04:21 AM

Hey, PoC,

Interesting point.

As long as I have read this blog, I do not recall a single instance of a post condemning the act of suicide bombing of civilians.

Then again, I have not seen any condemnation of Saddam's use of the plastic shredder either.

What's a fellow to conclude?

Posted by: stephen at November 25, 2003 07:37 AM

well so long as it's ok for the military to use helicopters and tanks to take down people in the middle of crowded markets I don't see the palestinians with any other options. remember Rabin ? the guy who actually wanted peace ? Peace is possible but not with walls and bombs, till Israel understands that fact no amount of walls or tanks will make them safe.

Posted by: asad at November 25, 2003 08:17 AM

Stephen, you haven’t read a single post condemning incest or wife beating either. Does that mean Pedram condones such behavior? The point is, you are referring to acts that nobody supports but for a very small percentage of the general population. Pedram has gone as far as expressing his forgiveness towards his torturers and makes his non-violence stand very clear. How dare now for you to suggest that he supports killing of civilians or death by torture?

For months I have watched you and a couple of similar minded people try very unsuccessfully to discredit his point of view. In fact, with your flawed reasoning and backwards logic, you have only managed to alienate those like myself who were not sure about some issues and wanted to get a good look at both sides of the argument. Failing on that front, you now resort to mud slinging and making comments that imply deceit. You must be ashamed of such comments and owe the writer a huge apology.

As for Choler, if it was up to him/her, I’m sure they’d like a similar wall all around the USA to keep out those Ayerab and Eyeranian bad guys too. To him punishing an entire nation, based on the acts of a few is well justified. All Palestinians must suffer, because a faction within them believes in blowing up restaurants. We have seen this mentality work so well in Israel over the past 50 years. Thankfully, there are still those of us who believe there are better ways.

You guys are just bordering on absurdity now.

Posted by: Kris at November 25, 2003 08:41 AM

Kris, why the motive-imputation? I don't want a wall put up around the US; the country was settled and built by immigrants. All four of my grandparents got off a boat from Europe (Norway, Germany, and Bohemia, as it was then called). These folks started with nothing but made use of and appreciated the opportunities that America offered them. I contrast their positive attitudes and contributions to their communities and country with the bellyaching I hear from some current immigrants.

Posted by: Person of Choler at November 25, 2003 10:02 AM

Theirs is a clear us vs. them mentality, you are with us or with the terrorist as their leader called it. Very pittyful and shallow. I'm not surprised by their mudslinging. It was bound to start at any time. Lets see how low they go now.

Posted by: Naser at November 25, 2003 10:04 AM

See? now whatever immigrant that may disagree with their president or administration in charge is not contributing to the community and has a negative attitude. They should all just put their heads down and like a sheep follow whatever we tell them to. God forbid they have an opinion, it'll be called bellyaching. I beg to differ.

Posted by: Naser at November 25, 2003 10:08 AM

Maybe it's because the "current" immigrants are better educated. http://www.prweb.com/releases/2003/10/prweb86256.htm

Posted by: asad at November 25, 2003 10:36 AM

Wow.

I'd like to address a couple of comments by Kris.

"you haven’t read a single post condemning incest or wife beating either '

You are correct. The distinction is that there have been NO posts on the issue. Here we have a post condemning the wall (and the wall is an idea that to me seems questionable at best), so we are in fact on the topic of Israel and violence. Thus it follows that my observing the lack of criticism of suicide bombing seems like a fair observation.

There is a long way to go between failure to criticize and condoning, and I did not suggest Pedram condones suicide bombing. That would not be my understanding of him.

I appreciate your indignation, but it is misplaced. I have not said, nor would I say that Pedram or anyone else I have read here "supports killing of civilians."

You accuse me of trying to " discredit his point of view" when in fact I am simply trying to debate SOME of his views. As you will note from my posts, there are many of his ideas I find sympathetic, and yes, some I find less sound.

I thought the whole blog idea was discourse.

Forgive me if I must smile at the idea that my "flawed reasoning and backwards logic" has alienated you. I was not aware we had that close a relationship.

Exactly where " mud slinging" comes into play I am not sure. I think my observation was a simple statement of fact. If I am mistaken, could you point out the posts wherein these condemnations took place? As for my implying deciet, I see no such implication.

When I said, "What's a fellow to conclude?" it does not mean I conclude Pedram agrees with those suicide bombers or torturers, but I think it is fair to say he has not criticized them with the same enthusiasm he has President Bush, for example.

Nassar, you can use, if you wish, the rhetorical device of the "red herring" and say I am slinging mud. But I have not. And challange anyone to show where "mud" has been slung by moi.

If I have libeled Pedram, missed some posts that are relevant, accidentally suggested he supports and endorses violence, or is a liar, then he has my sincere and heartfelt apology. I did not mean, nor do I beleive, any such thing.

And I, if I have misstated my beliefs so poorly that I have accused our good host of supporting violence, then I am ashamed at my poor writing skills, but not more.

To assume that because I made this criticism of the posts, does not mean I think Pedram is a supporter of these suicide bombers wherever their actions.

It does mean that I think he might, from time to time, as events warrant, offer condemnation of these kinds of actions.

I have no problem with condemnation of Israel for its failure to find workable solutions. In fact, I think Israel has shown a terrible prejudice against Palestinians, who have every right to peacefully live where they have for generations.

I have no sympathy for the idea that the Jews are God's chosen, and so the hell with everyone else in Palestine.

It always grates on me somewhat when there is gnashing of teeth over the 6 million jews exterminated in concentration camps, with no mention of the 6 million others (gypsies, catholics, gays, etc.) who also died in those camps.

I think a human life is sacred no matter whose it is, no matter where it may be "from" or where it lives now. The mutual hatred in Palestine/Israel apalls me.

And in closing, may I respectfully suggest that what some of us see going on is that people will harshly attack America while keeping silent on the horrible things that go on in places like North Korea and Iraq.

Sure criticize us, (I do it a lot) but let's also realize that there is a lot that is good here.

Posted by: stephen at November 25, 2003 12:14 PM

S. you are not "debating" anything with that last post. Pedram has had plenty of posts about his family, dating, etc. yet never brought up wife beating. Why should he? So he talks about the wall and not the suicide killings, so what? He brings up stuff he sees fit and wants to write about. As we all do. Your point is mute.

The rest of your "reasons" are just the normal "nonesense" you have been repeatedly told by others you produce.

I agree, you were way off line and should apologize properly, not the half-ass "if he has been hurt" kind you just used in that sorry of an excuse.

Posted by: Jerry in Jersey at November 25, 2003 12:42 PM

Perhaps the reason why there is nothing about suicide bombing here, is that those news get plenty of coverage in the US by its media. It is not fair if Pedram, uses his limited resource here to repeat what is said many times by the massive US media.

Pedram has shown that he does not agree with violence, so I think it is ok if Stephen is not capable of seeing it. There are so many Stephen's, is Pedram supposed to convince them all? It would be Just waste of time.

Posted by: Faramin at November 25, 2003 07:49 PM

"Sure criticize us, (I do it a lot) but let's also realize that there is a lot that is good here."

Car to elaborate? what exactly we are bragging about now? democracy? freedom of speach? what exactly? haven't we become delusional?

As an American, I feel extremely alienated and looked down on when I travel around the world especially Europe. Is it because we are such a great nation and they envy us? give me break will ya?

Posted by: Doug at November 25, 2003 09:57 PM

Ariel Sharon is the biggest war criminal ever walked on the face of this planet. He's a disgrace to jews and a red flag for sovereignty of Israel.

Posted by: anon at November 25, 2003 10:08 PM

I must add my name to the list of those who have expressed concern about what has been implied here and hope Stephen will either apologize properly to our host or find a different way to articulate his offerings. That was just a very stupid comment.

Posted by: NoBody at November 25, 2003 10:09 PM

Whether one agrees with Pedram or Stephen on this or that particular point this blog would be dry and boring if everyone left comments to agree with one another (much like Rush Limbaugh and his "ditto" listeners). Many of Pedram's posts have had my complete agreement, but even the ideas I have problems with open up another side of the issue - one I very well may not have considered before. It's one thing to write that Bush and Sharon are idiots. But can't we argue the issues and viewpoints at hand without personally insulting the writers?

Posted by: Kristen at November 25, 2003 11:09 PM

Kristen,

When I disagree with someone I try to show that I disagree with their ideas, and not attacking them personally.

Some people seem unable to seperate a challange to their beliefs and personal attack.

Even in this controversial post, I was not attacking Pedram personally but suggesting that considering all sides in these matters can be enlightening.

In so many posts I ask for those who oppose my ideas to rebutt them with facts and logic, but very often what comes back is personal animosity, and wisecracks with no reasoning.

Perhaps you have hit on a truism, both of ditto heads and ideologues here: they want no thoughtful debate to disturb their world view.

These stop being discussions of substance, and become more about the mental process, and if someone sees both sides, or offers an alternate opinion, the only response some people have is to attach labels with no explanation. It is easy to assign "pitiful and shallow" - but to address the actual statement in a thoughtful fashion takes some effort.

Tolerance is not easy to practise.

And Doug, I'd suggest that you look at the freedom of speech in Iran, North Korea, China, etc., and ask yourself why so many people risk their lives to get here. Why does Pedram (et al), despite his many issues stay. I suggest that it is exactly because there is good here.

I have enjoyed the discussions here. I don't enjoy feeling unwelcome.

fini.

Posted by: stephen at November 26, 2003 06:11 AM

I must say I also have felt that some of the comments made in response to Stephen’s posts have been unkind, personal, sometimes over the top and generally not in the spirit of constructive dialogue. I have noticed him asking for specifics and has had no direct response. I do not believe this is the way to win someone over, nor does it ad weight to the individual’s standing on a particular issue.

I for one am very uncomfortable if someone says he feels unwelcome amongst us and sincerely hope to see more of Stephen and others like him in the hope that at least on some issues if not all we mange to hammer out a common dialogue and understanding. This Blog would be far too boring if we all agreed with each other.

Stephen, there is good in everything and no one should deny it but I guess the criticism aired here and elsewhere about U.S. is because people’s expectations of “the land of the free” are justifiably high. Economically, politically and strategically America has positioned herself as the leader of the free world. This carries a huge burden of responsibility and accountability on anything that affects the global village.

We are no longer surprised when we hear about child molestation, but I am sure everyone gets a shock when a priest or a policeman is the culprit. It is simply unacceptable. I guess that settles your argument when you make comparisons with North Korea, Iraq or Iran.

Every criticism laid against the U.S is precisely because it is the U.S of A and not North Korea, not Iran, not Liberia, not …………..

The literal translation of Ostrich in Farsi is “Camel-bird”. They asked the camel-bird to lay an egg; she said “I am a camel”. They said, can you carry a load? she said I am a Bird.

America needs to decide which.

Posted by: AZARI at November 26, 2003 08:18 AM

Some commentary from an immigrant that may be of interest: http://fayrouz.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_fayrouz_archive.html#106981273845546138

Posted by: Person of Choler at November 26, 2003 08:26 AM

Stephen, I believe you just showed why people don't show any desire to get engaged in a logical dialogue with you. You come across as arrogant and leave very little to discuss with your matter of fact attitude. There are others here who also disagree with some posts or opinions, yet you seem to get the most hostility. Ever wonder why? Debating anything with you will be like siting in front of Fox News screaming at the screen, what's the point? You also can't get over the fact that some views are expressed by an immigrant. As if there are some who have a right to complain or offer a voice of dissent, and others who due to their place birth, religion, race or ethnicity do not. I'm sure that is not your intention, but think about it and it may (or may not) make sense to you.

But you probably won't understand the point of this comment either and disagree with the same style and winning no support for your position at all. Some smart person once said the best way to defeat any point of view is to defend it poorly. You excel at that.

Posted by: at November 26, 2003 02:58 PM