November 12, 2003
False Pride
Not many things turn me off more than this sense of false pride some of my countrymen and women hold over some of the most bizarre ideas they feel what a sense of national and cultural pride should be. Granted, this is probably not unique to Iranians but I only get pissed off a lot when it hits so close to home. An example of such, appeared in pages of iranian.com recently, which appropriately enough was featured in their "anyway" section (there are variations of the same text in heavy e-mail circulation also). Anyway should be my reply to this apparent proud Iranian lawyer from Sydney who believes aside from fire and pomegranate juice (I won't let go, will I?), all other wonderful stuff on earth came from "Persia" or is downright "Persian".
I was going to write a reply to him when I got a message from Siamak Farah about the same and explaining how his nephew who has never been to Iran, but "knows more about Iran than any other 10 Iranians I know" has done a bit of research on the topic and prepared a reply that should knock the socks off anyone who wants to be a proud Iranian, based on false data and facts.
So, with his permission, here are the original points with comments added by Mahyar Farahbakhshian:
Who are the Iranians?Posted by Pedram at November 12, 2003 11:58 PM1. Twelve thousand years ago, they invented irrigated farming.
Sumerians/Elamites, not Iranians. Iranians entered that area about four thousand years ago.
2. They invented writing.
Ditto. Sumerians invented cuneiform.
3. They figured out how to tell time.
Babylonans. A semitic people.
4. They founded modern mathematics.
This is true. See Al-khwarizmi.
5. In the Code of Hammurabi, they invented the first legal system that protects the weak, the widow and the orphan.
Babylonians. Cyrus let the law stand.
6. Five thousand years ago, they had philosophers who attempted to list every known thing in the world.
Twenty five hundred, and the philosophers themselves were Greek.
7. They were using Pythagoras' theorem 1,700 years before Pythagoras.
Untrue.
8. They invented artificial building materials, some kind of pre-fab-crete stuff used to construct high-rise towers.
Buildings in that area are made of mud.
9. Northern Iran, is assumed to be the place we're all descended from.
Define 'we all'. Indo-Europeans spread out in all directions from points a little north and a little west. Think Kazakhstan today.
10. They were the first people to build cities and live in them.Sumerians are not Iranian.
11. For thousands of years, they wrote the greatest poetry, history and "sagas" in the world and they still do.
That's subjective.
12. Because they were great horse breeders, they invented the cavalry in war, Knights of the King originate in Ancient Persia, and they invented other things like the Game of Polo (Cho-gun).
This is true.
13. They invented the postal system.
Also true.14. Emperor Darius the conqueror invented and built the Suez Canal giving access to the Persian Navy to the Mediterranean Sea (Infact that is precisely how the Moslem armies went as far as Spain some thousand years later)
Cambyses did it. It failed and he ordered the waters whipped. Darius did a slightly better job. There is a thirty meter difference in the sea level of the Red and Mediterranean. Only the phoenecian engineers seemed to get it right. In any case, the canals crumbled later.
15. The Iranian Museum in Tehran contains some of the most outstanding stone, metal and clay sculptures and inscriptions created in the history of the world. Some of them are more than 7,000 years old. If a bomb hits this place, art lovers around the world will go into mourning.
The British museum has a lot of the same work. If any museum is bombed, art lovers will go into mourning.
16. The first school for astronomers was established by Iranians. This is how the "wise men" got to be so wise. They knew how to follow the stars.
True.
17. Beginning around 200 A.D., the Iranians founded universities that exported teachers throughout the civilized world to teach medicine, mathematics, philosophy, theology, literature and poetry inter alia...
This is not so impressive. The Romans had universities of this scale for Five hundred years. The Greeks for nearly a thousand.
18. Abraham, the father of Israel, was from Persia.
He was from Ur, which is at the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates in Iraq. He also was not Persian.
19. Abraham, the father of Islam, was from Persia (Which means Abraham was Persian)
See above. The comments "(Which means Abraham was Persian)" is fallacious because it does not address the concept that the same lands can be occupied by different people at different times.
20. Abraham, the father and "model" of Christian faith, was from Persia.
See above.
I am not sure what to make of this. Every group tries to claim as much "we did it first" as possible.
As a human, I am proud to say that humans did these things before monkeys, polar bears or ants did them.
As for item number:
1. Sumarians may have invented irrigated farming, and Persians may have adopted it, but Americans perfected the art of becoming wealthier than the king by singing about farming;
2. The Sumerians may have invented the cuneiform, but Americans invented the maidenform.
3. Babylonians may have figured out how to tell time, but only American TV's reality shows make it seem to slow down;
4. Persians may have founded modern mathematics, but Enron invented modern accounting;
5. Babylonians may have invented the first legal system, but Americans invented Court TV;
6. The Persian philosophers may have listed everything known, but Americans put each and every one of those things on sale at Sunday yard sales;
7. Regarding the use of Pythagoras' theorem, it is Americans who put a man on the moon, and have built the superpower of today all with a population that has no freaking idea who Pythagoras was, and largely think that a theorem is a high milage japanese car;
8. It is Americans who remarketed a perfectly good construction material (mud) and sell it a very high prices for women to smear on their faces, largely to allow men to laugh at how silly they look;
9. Americans know "we all" descended from Adam and Eve, who spoke Shakespearian English;
10. Sumerians may have built the first cities, but Americans invented the traffic jam;
11. Persians may have invented the greatest litarature, but Americans invented the soap opera and the romance novel;
12 & 13 Persians, adept at inventing games, also invented the postal system, but Americans combined them to create the game of Post Office;
14. Darius invented the Suez Canal, Ameicans invented Love Canal;
15. Someday, perhaps, Stonehenge may be viewed by all in an Iraqi museum;
16. Persians were the first men to gaze at the stars and seek meaning, and Nancy Reagan was the first First Lady to invite them to be presidential advisors;
17. Persians may have had the first universities that taught medicine, mathematics, philosophy, theology, literature and poetry- but it is only Americans who have to go to college to learn about sex;
18 Abraham, the father of Israel and Islam, was from Persia. And he needs to get back here and tell the kids to quit arguing or will send them all to their rooms.
Posted by: stephen at November 13, 2003 06:34 AM"I am not sure what to make of this." It is okay to not make anything of it. You do not HAVE TO have an opinion on anything you read here. I just looked back and it seems as if you feel obligated to offer a word of wisdom on EVERYTHING. Even when there's very little wisdom displayed. Take a couple od days off from "commenting" and leave the field for others to explore. It really is okay to do so.
Posted by: Naser at November 13, 2003 07:25 AMstephen: Now you are going to tell us that Americans invented everything since they are the descendants of immigrants who came from all over. You probably think the Magna Carta was written by and for Americans?
In any case, the Romance novel first appeared in Medieval France. It came from the chansons d'amour sung by troubadours and trouvères. Look stephen we know you, like many Americans, are afflicted with an acute case of patriotism but please don't try to infect the rest of us. In any case, we have all been immunized by aggressive American actions over the years.
Posted by: Advanced Calculus at November 13, 2003 08:10 AMBoys, boys, boys!
I appreciate your attack dog enthusiasm, and I understand the difficulties, AC, of translating U.S. English to Canadian English, but upon careful examination you might discover that post was all self-deprecating parody.
Nasar, I do appreciate the advice, but let me point out that I commented not on O-Hum nor on David Miller, despite the vicious rumor that they are the same person.
Frankly, the juxtaposition of cuneiform and maidenform still amuses me.
i just thought stephen's first comment was funny. i don't know why some people took it so seriously.
cheers...
Posted by: Foad at November 13, 2003 10:23 AMfoad - it is a sort of boy who cried wolf too often syndrom. if you read his comments regularly, you may understand the knee-jerk reactions he got here. he is the king of observations based on pure hallucination and defending stuff he knows very little about. i agree with your remarks, but can also understand why others can't wait to point out his foolhardiness.
Posted by: nobody at November 13, 2003 10:45 AMJesus Tapdancing Christ people. Get a job and buy a sense of humor. Stephen's post was hilarious.
Posted by: regressive at November 13, 2003 12:07 PMSuppose all those claims are true. Add to it that Persians invented the first telegraph system (sort of), the first federative system, the first constitution, the first human rights declaration, monotheism, the concept of judgment day, etc. SO WHAT?
1. Every single person in the world is descended from somebody who lived 2000, 5000, 100000 years ago who had a sort of culture that created something, somehow.
2. Not much trace of that big ancient civilization has been left in us, the present Iranians. We are mostly a mixture of Arabs, , Mongols, Turks, Afghans, etc. with just a little ancient persian blod. Our present habits and culture is more influenced by centuries of being rulled by turkish and mongol tribes, and also by side effects of a failed modernisation era, than it reflects our supposedly briliant ancient civilization.
I have a couple of fenatic nationalist people arround me here that think like that Sydney Lawyer. Their blind emotional nationalism makes me sick. It is as harmfully stupid as religous fanatism.
On the other hand, do not forget that many Iranians use such nationalist fantasies to escape the humiliation they feel in real life from akhundism and from Irans condition in the world.
I can't even get a "pass" when I make fun of myself. I think I am being discriminated against.
Posted by: stephen at November 13, 2003 02:04 PMWhat I have often found irritating in the display of fundness for all "persian" past is that it wasn't so great after all. The old Iranians, the Dariuses and Cyruses and all were Kings who made their fortune on the back of the poor people.
Don't tell me that farmers and herders depicted on the walls of Persepolis handing the fruit of their labor to the King is a happy occasion for them. In fact, if you believe that the Western world treatment of the 3rd world is wrong and is immoral, well, the "Persians" everyone is so proud of were doing this exact thing... Colonialism and exploitation of the weak by using superior force.
I for one, hope that the Kings will never return...ever.
Posted by: Nima at November 13, 2003 05:24 PMAmericans invented the satellite but only Iranians know how to use the dishes without decoders.
British invented the Hilman hunter, but only Iranians can make them last for half a century
Americans made the Phantom jet but only Iranians managed to run it with a Saab engine.
Arabs invented the hejab, but only Iranians know how to make it into haute couture
Americans built the top universities but seems only Iranians are coming out with the Phd.
Americans invented the Soap opera, only after observing the Iranians.
Iranians invented the post and only Iranians don’t trust to use it.
Americans invented the plastic surgery and only Iranians made it an everyday thing.
Good one, Azari.
Posted by: regressive at November 14, 2003 07:25 AM:)
Getting anything to run with a SAAB engine is an accomplishment.
Posted by: stephen at November 14, 2003 08:03 AMStephen,
I as one, enjoyed your contribution.
Alright, with all due respect, I truly feel that you people are disgustingly ignorant. I am fifteen years old and not certain of how old you people are, but your views and the way you idiots simplify antiquity with sheer ignorance and no legitimacy just makes me laugh. You sound like a 16 year old peice of white trash weed smoking drop out, who speaks primarily out of your ass's. I can't remember which one of you LOSERS was the one that stated that we shouldn't take any pride and nationalism in our antiquity but i would like to remind you know thatwhether you believe it or not one thing did leave to another but at the same time different groups of people who possesed a culture were just that...DIFFERENT!
But we must understand that some of these cultures (Persians) were simply more enlightened off of a social, religious, and innovatively driven standpoint. There is nothing wrong with reminding the modern and coroded world of our youth and maybe even our mature societ (in your case!) of this. I agree with you stating that we shouldn't over-emphasize on something that we are not quit certain that a specific race invented, but for the structures, arts, ideas, and enlightenments that the Persians were responsible
for, i believe that the rest of you absolute morons should shut your mouths. GO READ A REAL DAMN BOOK and P.S. Please make sure it wasn't only written by any Western philosophers!
Excuse my language but it's hard to hold your tongue when you must sit for ten minutes and read some of the most ignorant, adolescent-like , garbage!
Posted by: Neema at November 21, 2003 07:59 PMWell, aren't we just a little Rimbaudian upstart?!
While little Neema is doing his teenage rebellion thing, may I remind him that, Western Europeans being mostly of Indo-Aryan 'stock', like the Persians, western philosophy is no doubt informed by the same genetic algorhythms that Persian philosophy is, thus could be seen, perhaps, as merely a branch of it. So by telling us not to read it, he's basically dissing a part of his own heritage, yes? Now go do your homework before we all spank your butt, little boy. And stop reading all those Playboy magazines hidden in your Avestas. (You do know what the Avestas are, right?)
Why waste so much energy as to who we were, what we had, what we did... Let's take a good look at what we are now, today...
A country representing terrorism, barbarism, treachery, lack of freedom, backwardness, religious fanatics….. and all this is not just forced on to people. Believe me, there are still hundreds and thousands of ignorant Iranians (or Persians!) that follow their no-worth religious leaders.
Where did that strong background go? Did we really have it??
Or was it just an elite group of Persians that throughout the generations sought intelligence, greatness and civilization?
WHO ARE WE KIDDING!!!!
Kat: Western Europeans being mostly of Indo-Aryan 'stock'............ I think you better do some more research, when i mean research it's not just five or six articles, i mean spend couple of months and use different independent references (Books ,articles, musuems and etc. ) of different eras, then you will realize that your sentence is not quite true.
Elite: There is no doubt that the country is representing terrorism, barbarism, treachery, lack of freedom, backwardness, religious fanatics….. but knowing the true history and what happened thousands years ago is part of a person's ethnical knowledge... and doesn't mean that persians are better NOW or WERE an elite group before. It just gives you the information on your heritage , but where you wanna go in life and what you will accomplish has nothing to do with that....Knowing the history of your background won't let anybody to undermine you because of your race, which happens a lot in daily life in US (i.e. Blacks, hispanics....).. and your current accomplishments in your life will determine your current social and intellectual level... American, Persian, German, Swedish or etc , know your history but don't take pride in the sense that makes you look like a fool racist.
Posted by: Scientist at December 5, 2003 04:19 PM"Western Europeans being mostly of Indo-Aryan 'stock'" you don't need months to disprove that sentance, only five seconds of common sense.
On a more serious note, most of what has been pointed out above is true. The article by iranian.com is mostly wrong. However, let me be the first one to point out that nothing in history is for certain. You cannot "prove" anything in history (even moreso in ancient history). Persians very well may have been using Pythagoras' theorum 1700 years before. We don't know. We CAN'T know. With the repetitous burning of libraries (thank you Alexander the so-called "great") all record of it has been erased. The meaning of life may have very well been written in the Avesta, but again we will not know since Alexander (personally) burned the original copy and later versions were missing more than 50% of it. We currently know of the Pythagorean theorum because it survived in Greek records. Cyrus may have used it to triangulate star positions for all we know; or Einstein's special theory of relativity may have been common knowledge (ok, ok I admit those were far-fetched). The point is, any one of those false facts may be true.
Posted by: Sourena at January 2, 2004 07:43 PM